Transcript

robi: [00:00:10.92] Welcome to a new episode of Leneșx Radio. Today we'll be talking about the documentary Belkî Sibê. It shows the experiences of an internationalist comrade who went to Rojava to fight for the revolution. And the documentary is about his experiences as a soldier holding a gun, but at the same time holding a camera. So it's a very unique perspective. And with us today to talk about the documentary is the director and protagonist, Alexis Daloumis. The discussion will focus in part about, uh, Alexis's experiences there and about Rojava itself and, uh, what, uh, Alexis could understand about the situation as it was unfolding there, including the political and civil arrangements situation. And then we will shift focus on the documentary itself - the process of filming, editing and now disseminating the film.

robi: [00:01:11.64] The voices you will be hearing today on the episode will be myself - I'm Robi - and two other longtime hosts on the podcast, Lori and Ioni. And also with us today will be Adi from Anarhiva, who has been a guest host on several other episodes, including the one about the 1st of May, which goes way back, uh, and also a few others. Some caveats before we kick off the discussion: first of all, the discussion was recorded in October last year, so in 2024. A lot has changed since then. In particular, the Assad dictatorship was toppled by a rebel offensive. Things have completely changed now. The fate of Rojava is still uncertain, as we have discussed in our last episode. That's why we don't mention it at all, because it was recorded before.

robi: [00:02:05.52] Also, the discussion features some criticisms of the political project in Rojava, how it's being put into practice. But I would really invite listeners to think of these criticisms as comradely criticisms, not dismissive criticisms. I guess what comes into mind is this book "Worth Fighting For" by Jenny Keasden and Amanda Szarek [n.r. Natalia Szarek], which also features the experiences of two internationalist comrades who went to fight in Rojava. And one interesting thing that they described there is their process of resolving conflicts in the group is not like shoving them under the bed or whatever, under the carpet, under the rug, as they say. It's actually to, like, directly say what's wrong, criticize each other in public during meetings, but in a way that assumes that you will stay in this community together and fight together. Yeah. And I would say that our criticisms are coming from the same direction.

robi: [00:03:09.36] last, uh, technical point, both on this episode and on the last episode, I had some issues with my mic. So the audio quality is not the best. It was still my original setup that I started four years ago with, and I still have no idea what I'm doing, but I finally bought some a bit more professional equipment, so hopefully that will improve. But also we support like DIY ethic and half-assing things is good enough, but I, just, I wanted to mention it. Okay, well, enjoy the episode.

NPC: [00:03:45.12] [intro collage]

robi: [00:04:07.32] Before we get into the discussion, could you tell a few words about yourself?

alexis: [00:04:12.40] Sure. I am from Athens. I've been around a lot. I'm using the name Alexis Daloumis, which is not exactly a pseudonym, but it's also not exactly the name on my passport. But this is also my internationally public name. It's the name I sign most of my work, especially things that have to do with, um, let's say activist movements, um, the anarchist movement in particular, films like the one - like Belkî Sibê - and, you know, environmental issues and conflict zones. Anyone can find me by the name Alexis Daloumis on pretty much all the main social media platforms: YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and even TikTok. And uh, although I've done various expeditions, like, Belkî Sibê is kind of my biggest work, let's say, so far, like, it took an outrageous amount of time to finish and, uh, a tremendous amount of effort, which would have been completely impossible without the help of many, many friends.

alexis: [00:05:21.48] But I've also, you know, undertaken other sort of, uh, you know, expeditions, let's say, like, I was - I also, I went to Ukraine covering the situation in the first phase of the war and also, again, in particular, some of the aspects of the anarchist mobilizing in Ukraine itself, but also like in Poland and, and parts of Germany and, uh, and other, like, Eastern Europe, to support what was in the beginning - became quite famous as - operation, uh, solidarity. That is before they unfortunately very publicly and acrimoniously split, which is also the reason why my work never really finished. I have a video on my YouTube channel which says anarchist mobilizing and something, something like "part one", and anyone can discover that "part two" never happens.

robi: [00:06:10.92] Yeah.

alexis: [00:06:12.20] And I never did. You cannot find part two, and there's a reason for that. And it's the one I just mentioned - is because both the political and the military, uh, units that were originally active, they both kind of imploded.

robi: [00:06:27.60] We watched this documentary that you made - Belkî Sibê. In the documentary, you document, uh, your experiences, uh, going to Rojava and fighting in the international brigades, in part. And then afterwards you also went back and tried to document a bit the civil life, uh, in Rojava. So, um, would you like to tell us a bit? How did you get to go to Rojava and deciding to make this documentary?

alexis: [00:06:52.76] First of all, just a clarification. Quite a lot of the material of the footage that is concerning the civilian life and the political and economic aspects of the revolution is, in fact from the first time around, from the 2016-17 part. That was not just the second visit that covered that. Now, in terms of how this came to be to begin with, uh, well, it's something that the film mentions, uh, in its early beginning, and I guess it's something that, uh, often sort of comes up and I make, I guess it makes some kind of impression to, let's say, international people in this case. I mean, international in relation to Greece. Um, that it all started with a very, very public event that was very openly calling for recruitment.

alexis: [00:07:47.84] This was an event held, you know, in the very center of Athens, in a public university, in broad daylight, so to speak. Which is, you know, certainly not quite the most common thing in, uh, in every other country, you know. It's a bit of a particularity, you know, in this sense. And I mentioned this because I know that for many people, getting to go to Rojava was a rather individual journey, a back and forth of emails, while for us it was rather different. We literally never send any email to anybody. There was already people there that had relations with the movement in Greece. And there was, as I said, a very public meeting where there was a bunch of representatives from a bunch of political parties of the Turkish left. And also some representatives of the PKK, as well. Aswell as representatives of an anarchist group that was one of the founding organizations of the IFB.

alexis: [00:08:53.12] So the IFB, which means International Freedom Battalion, was a creation primarily of the Turkish left, i would say. And there were more parties involved to begin with as well. As far as I know. But in effect, like eventually in that summer of 2015, in Serekaniye, the main parties, there were basically three: TKP/ML [The Liberation Army of the Workers and Peasants of Turkey], MLKP [The Marxist–Leninist Communist Party] and DKP [The Revolutionary Communard Party]. Well, actually BÖG, which was like the military branch [of DKP]. So it was these three parties. And then there was another two organizations, Reconstruccion Communista from Spain. This was like a couple of people at the time and didn't really have much of a continuation. And RUIS - Epanastatikós Sýndesmos Diethnistikís Allilengýis in Greek or in English, Revolutionary Union of International Solidarity.Now, that was also an organization of, you know, small membership, but of, uh, you know, a significant presence in that time, the time of the founding of the IFB.

alexis: [00:10:09.88] The history of the matter is that these five were the founding organizations of the IFB. So RUIS being one of the organizations, plus, as I said, the representative was also present in this public event in Athens. So, as I said, it was a very public, very open, event that very openly suggested recruitment. The event itself was, in fact to announce the foundation of the IFB. So given all that, one thing led to another. Yes, I expressed interest to people I knew personally. And like I said, there was never an email involved. Most things were discussed face to face with people who were, you know, involved and so on.

adi: [00:10:55.60] But when you took that decision to go to Rojava, did you already know that you would document your experience there? Or was it something that you kind of figured out along the way?

alexis: [00:11:08.48] No, no, absolutely. It was a distinct part of my suggestion. From the very beginning to the people I spoke was exactly this, that part of my that yes, we would, you know, enter the military structure as well, and specifically the IFB. Um, but that with the purpose of documenting the things and eventually like hopefully creating a documentary. Which, as I said, did indeed take a staggering amount of time to finish.

adi: [00:11:37.04] But it's kind of the way I think anarchists work in general. Because when I heard you saying that you filmed bits and pieces and sometimes you make the first part and the second part is never released, or you have footage... I think you say in the movie at some point you have footage for three other movies, actually. but you just did this one. Um, I couldn't help but think of the, I don't know, the classical part of anarchism where like Bakunin or other writers at the time were doing these bits, uh, these fragments and putting them together after a long time in a book. I think Bakunin is famous with the fact that he never finished a book. Like, uh, all the books he published were published by his friends from bits and pieces that he spreads all around.

alexis: [00:12:39.16] I see.

adi: [00:12:39.52] So I think it's in some kind ingrained in the anarchist practices to sometimes be all over the place, but put those fragments together and at some point also find a story. So this leads me to one of the things that caught my eye when I saw the announcement that the movie will be released. It's the title. Belki Sibe. I think it's in Kurdish. Could you like, elaborate? What does it mean? Belki Sibe. Because it has a subtitle, A journey Through the Syrian war and the Rojava revolution. But Belki Sibe, I think, has a meaning.

alexis: [00:13:23.84] Uh, yes, certainly. Certainly. It is in fact kurmanji specifically, um, and it means maybe tomorrow. Now there's two main layers of meaning to that. Firstly, it was a very common phrase in Rojava, and in this sense, it is almost like an inside joke for anyone who has been in Rojava. Because I'm pretty sure that pretty much anyone who has been in Rojava for any significant amount of time would instantly recognize the reference. It is a very commonly used phrase, which in fact has a second part and its most original form, I would say. Which is Belki Sibe Nabe Lie. Or rather beforehand, Nabe Lie, Belki Sibe. Neighbourly, which means 'It's not clear, maybe tomorrow'.

alexis: [00:14:19.00] Um, as you can probably imagine, this was a kind of phrase used all over the place at various given times when anyone was trying to figure out anything. Let's say. When will this car arrive? When will the generator be fixed? When will you know this kind of supplies or equipment be available? When will this person, uh, arrive or will be available for a meeting or whatever? Like all sorts of things. All sorts of questions. Uh, all sorts of things that one might expect were very often affected by this sort of let's say it's not even the fog of war, but rather, uh, overall omnipresence of uncertainty.

alexis: [00:15:12.84] And this is characteristic to some extent, of any conflict zone. In fact, this characteristic of the situation of war and, uh, the context of a conflict zone, but to some extent it was also, you know, characteristic of particular situation over there and to some extent of the culture. And in that sense, you know, it reflects a direct reference to like, our experience there and to sort of what it was like being there, expressing this, this constant sense of uncertainty.

alexis: [00:15:44.80] Um, but also on a second, let's say deeper level, it is meant to have like kind of a symbolic meaning as well. It is a reference to the vulnerability of the revolution itself. And to the fact that it is still a work in progress. That it is a project that is very far from finished, and that it is also not even -- and that goes sort of back to the uncertainty as well, in a sense -- not even totally sure that it will definitely manage to survive and to thrive. It is meant to, yeah, to sort of refer to the revolution itself. As something that has made a lot of progress that has achieved already many things and that has been victorious so far, but also has suffered defeats and that is not clear. It's not guaranteed that it will be victorious all the way to the end.

alexis: [00:16:44.04] It faces a lot of very serious and existential threats all around it. It is surrounded by either openly enemy or just, let's say, not not particularly friendly, um, powers. And in this sense it is not finished. It has not yet reached even in terms of its internal development, it has definitely not yet reached the ideals that it is proclaiming to fight for. The kind of society that it is meant to build. My take on it is that it has not reached, that there's still a lot of distance to cover, and hopefully it will. But as I said, given all the adversity that it faces, it's actually not sure that it will manage. Indeed. So maybe in the future, you know, maybe tomorrow it's not done yet. That's kind of the point.

adi: [00:17:39.32] There is an analogy that came to my mind. I know that like in 2021, when you were back in Rojava to see the civil life and do all these interviews, there was this, uh, big Zapatista voyage in Europe with a lot of delegations and people coming all over. And I know I saw a sticker that kind of reminds me of Belki Sibe. There is a snail with a balaclava, you know, like, uh, Subcomandante Marcos. And the message under the snail is lento, pero avanzo. Slowly, but I advance. When the Zapatista delegations came, uh, they shared their philosophy in a sense. And one of the pillars of their philosophy was this. Slowly, but we go forward. It doesn't have to happen today. It doesn't have to happen this way, this particular way. We will find our way eventually. So I found it very. Yeah. Revealing for me.

alexis: [00:18:45.49] I mean, there is a direct quote in the film which I hope we're not... We probably shouldn't make too many spoilers. That's something to look out for. But but there is a direct quote, and it's actually from my own voiceover which says that, uh, you know, there has been progress. And I actually say like, rather slow progress for that matter, you know. Um, so there you go. Yes. I think the idea of slow progress is present. Yes. Over there as well.

adi: [00:19:14.17] So maybe, uh, we can also talk about, uh, the social revolution in Rojava that you cover.

alexis: [00:19:21.29] Before we advance, let me say just one more thing. I mean, I know you, uh, kind of, uh, making a bit of a joke as well in terms of our anarchist history. And as much as it is very tempting to think of it in these terms, in fact, there was also a lot of other sort of setbacks in terms of finishing this film. Including the pandemic, by the way. Which I guess was a setback for all sorts of projects. Uh, but what I want to mention is that given sort of this opportunity is that this was a project that, on the one hand, the kind of thing that this project entails. Yeah? Like the two trips to Syria, you know, and so on and so forth. Uh, an original score even, and its budget are, you know, an almost impossible combination.

alexis: [00:20:05.73] This was a project that was realized with extremely low budget for standards of filmmaking, like in the festival world. Technically, it is not a category of low budget, it's in the category of no budget and, um,

adi: [00:20:22.89] Minus budget.

alexis: [00:20:24.69] Yeah. And then, uh, also another fundamental thing. There is also a particularity of this film, which is also kind of what gives it a lot of its value. That it is a soldiers film. It's not like a professional crew of journalists that went there and got embedded in a unit for a few weeks or whatever. It's actually from within. Like I was a soldier myself for a year and a half over there. And many of the people I interviewed were people that I fought with, you know. And that is something that gives some sort of unique qualities to this film. Which I'm totally ready to admit. That, on the other hand, has also some objective weaknesses. You know, in terms of how professional filmmaking is done nowadays. There was a lot of DIY, let's say, involved in all of that.

alexis: [00:21:13.73] And there is also an objective problem in terms of the production itself. It is an insane idea to try and be a soldier and a filmmaker at the same time. Because then, you know, you return with a complete chaos of material. There was a bunch of conditions that made this, uh, very difficult to finish, you know, and to put in one coherent narrative. Also, another thing is that given everything I already said, it is also very difficult, especially when it's something you were personally involved in so actively, to condense all that stuff within a movie. There are whole chapters that were cut out of the film. And still, even now at 98 minutes, this film is a pretty long documentary, so much so that there's plenty of documentary festivals that wouldn't take it because it exceeds the limit.

adi: [00:22:07.09] Because of the length? Wow.

alexis: [00:22:09.01] And yet at 98 minutes, it is still packed with information. That's one of its weaknesses that I mentioned. It's way too heavy on information and not enough silence and pause. And yet, given all this, there is so much missing. There is so, so much missing from all that. So anyway, yeah, I just wanted to interject that before we move on.

robi: [00:22:31.45] You say that they are some weaknesses or shortcomings whatever, as you say. But I think like for me it really works. I don't see it as a movie about how Rojava is from an outside, from a how do you say like omniscient and omnipotent, whatever narrator. But it's actually the perspective of someone from a European country or whatever who went there. And this is what you could tell about how things are. And this was your experience of not only documenting the fighting against ISIS, but actually being a soldier. Like, it's such a different perspective. And there's not like a war journalist who is carrying a camera, but you were actually holding the gun and filming it at the same time. It's I think it's very impressive.

robi: [00:23:11.41] And it's exactly that perspective of being in the International Brigades. For me, the documentary works really well. You say that some of them are shortcomings, but I think that this is anarchist not only in content but in the the method also. Like with low resources and, uh, just making do with what you had and showing a perspective that would not be shown by someone who is only a war journalist, who's not fighting and who's not embedded in the brigades. So I think what you say are shortcomings, i really feel them as strengths.

alexis: [00:23:43.05] Thank you for saying that. It's kind of unique. You know, this kind of thing. Like, I'm not aware of many films like that. Uh, maybe some, something similar back in the day or whatever. But it doesn't often happen. That someone is a soldier for that long and at the same time kind of documenting, being a filmmaker and a journalist. And kind of what I want to say is that there is a reason for that. There is a reason people don't do this. Because it is kind of insane thing to do to yourself, you know? Uh, so you have to be, like, a little bit crazy in the head, you know, like to attempt and go through with something like this.

alexis: [00:24:21.29] Um, but yes, yes, it was quite something. Quite a crazy idea, really. Look, I took a lot from me. It took a great toll in my in my life, literally. But at least I fucking finished it. And with a decent outcome as well. Because let me tell you, there was so many times, so many setbacks, so much difficulty, that many times I really wished I could just give up. But it was a little bit like a debt, kind of like a debt I had. And I'm finally free of this debt at least. Uh, you know.

adi: [00:24:58.37] At the point, I think in the film you say that going to Rojava was not about having a war adventure, but about defending a real revolution. And this is one of the points that really came across for me. The two main threads, War and Revolution, they are going throughout the film. But, uh, there is a strong sense, in my opinion, that they are not overlapping. They are sometimes in a kind of a tension. And one of the things that I, uh, noticed was exactly this social creativity that was going on, uh, behind the front lines. And behind this war that was going on. I had the distinct feeling that people were not only engaged in war, but also in creating something together. And they were like putting a lot of resources, not only in surviving these horrendous circumstances, but also in trying to figure out a way of living and of creating a society that would work for people there. Maybe you can briefly say some things about the system there. The way that they are, uh, trying to organize themselves.

alexis: [00:26:17.69] It's a little bit more nuanced question. And again, we're making maybe a little bit of spoilers here. But it's something the film touches upon. Yeah. And it's, uh, mentioned in the film by someone who worked both in a civil position and in the military. That like, kind of ironically, it is a revolution from the top down. Meaning what he was particularly referring to is this aspect, which has been a fundamental aspect of focus, especially for anarchists, the whole community self-organization in regards to how communes, councils work. Because to some extent it is probably the most widespread implementation of self-organized function within a society.

alexis: [00:27:05.33] And the irony is, to some extent a little bit that it is in fact, indeed, as I mentioned, an implementation. Implemented as such by a force that is basically governing the land. We can debate whether, you know, the term social revolution is entirely accurate or not. But the fact of the matter is that for sure, we can safely say that it was not some kind of spontaneous revolution of the masses. Yes, there was a very, very organized and militarized force that literally came down from the mountains and took over the void that was created by the withdrawal of government troops, of the regime of Bashar al Assad.

alexis: [00:27:47.85] And in that sense, and as this person I mentioned before, also sort of mentions is that --and this is, again, a direct quote from the film -- that the party is genuinely trying to get more people involved. So basically the people who are in charge overall are actually actively trying to get people involved in those sort of units of self-organization. And it's something that it's much less especially back then in 2017.

alexis: [00:28:21.05] We're talking about communes and councils right now. It is, in fact, something much less developed than what European and American leftists and anarchists particularly would like to imagine. But that doesn't mean that it's not real. Why it also was important to go back to northeast Syria in 2021, is that I found quite evident and visible progress in that regard. And that is again mentioned in the film. And I might like kind of leave it at that so people can actually watch the film instead of just listening to this podcast. I think we've done plenty of spoilers so far.

adi: [00:28:58.81] Hopefully not too many.

alexis: [00:29:00.33] Da, da. I think I think we're good. I think we're good.

ioni: [00:29:04.33] And then to touch a bit on some of the things that are in the movie. But, you know, maybe some of us would want to see them a bit more extended. Maybe we should talk a bit about the shortcomings of Rojava. But, you know, not in this critical, nihilistic, it's not a proper implementation of communism approach. Even at one point in the film you point this out, that the councils aren't as strong as they wish they were. You mentioned that private capital is flowing into Kobani and in other places. And it would be interesting to know to what degree there's a tension between the communes, the councils and private enterprise to a degree. Plus nationalistic tendencies, like the tendencies were in some more marginal places kurmanji is replacing Arabic and we're basically seeing borderline ethnic cleansing of Arab populations. Do you want to touch a bit on some of these shortcomings, and how do you think, uh, they can combat it?

alexis: [00:30:01.73] I will kind of literally just touch. Let me say something which is useful to mention in pretty much any discussion like that. And I say this because it comes up often in my Q and A's. Yeah. When I make live Q&A after a screening and I get kind of all sorts of questions and I find myself often not obliged rather, but, you know... So there's a helicopter flying above me right now. I don't know if it's messing sound recording, but it's definitely messing with my, like, uh, kind of focus. I hope it's yes, it's fucking off. Finally.

alexis: [00:30:39.25] So, yeah. Anyway, I find myself sometimes keen to make the point that, look, I'm a guy who made a film while I was a soldier over there. That doesn't make me, you know... I'm not a professor of international relations with specialization on the Middle East. I'm not. You know, I'm not like those journalists who have been embedded in the Middle East for 20 years or something. And I'm in no way a specialist in all things concerning the situation over there. And also, I haven't been there for quite a while. I've only been there for like a couple of months in 2021, since the end of 2017. So I'm not necessarily the most expert person to speak about everything. And having said all that, I want to go back to something I mentioned before, which is about the RIC, the Rojava Information Center.

alexis: [00:31:31.21] Because in regards to some of the things you mentioned and I can like sort of like briefly touch upon. Yes. There have been criticisms of um, let's say some sort of tensions, some situations where it was seen that some people felt or there was an interpretation, uh, that there was a little bit of a cultural hegemony developing of kurmanji. Of kurmanji as a language, in terms of also how like, even like schools, curriculum and things like this and so on. But it was addressed sort of, I think, at the time.

alexis: [00:32:07.49] And there is at times various tensions that like, for example, around the time when I went back in 2021 -- a little bit before, in fact -- there was some pretty important tensions in Manbij, which is a majority Arab city. And, uh, one thing that is good to remember always that there is a factor in this region which we are not very familiar with as Europeans, and this is tribes very, very, very old traditions and very old social norms, let's say, and ways of social functioning, uh, that have to do with tribes and tribe leaders and the sort of family connections and something, something and so on. And how alliances work as well, um, in terms of those tribes. And that often plays a role in these kind of situations, like the one I'm mentioning in Manbij.

alexis: [00:32:54.81] And I mentioned the RIC because I remember there was at the time a pretty extensive article about that. This is like one example, but you can find some good analysis which upholds some journalistic standards as well. People might be hearing this and say, well, yeah, obviously we would expect that, but that's actually not how it usually works in any conflict zone. Let me make clear. So it's actually quite important, quite valuable that there are resources like that. There was so much more insight in that article and like field work than I could possibly like offer like, you know, just saying things from the top of my head, you know, about this and that.

alexis: [00:33:36.41] Overall, I will say that there is most certainly still alive and active, uh, you know, uh, sort of Kurdish nationalism among the ranks of the Kurdish movement. I would say much less so, uh, the higher the rank goes. And there are shortcomings, i think, even in policies. I wouldn't go necessarily too much into detail into that. But I think that even some policies are not perhaps as sensitive to Arabic culture than they are to their own military culture. But at the same time, we have to admit that at the same time, they have been quite spectacularly successful in recruiting Arabs in the SDF. As early as 2021, when I went back, the SDF was in fact a majority Arab force. At around 53%, as a local... Not local. He was American. But like, um, person living there and a journalist kind of explained to me. Lucas Chapman, in fact, you can look him up. He has done some a lot of good work as well.

alexis: [00:34:45.49] Matt Broomfield, by the way. Matt Broomfield is back and writes in Jacobin and other magazines, is also very good as a good writer and a good resource for people to check. And he writes good analysis and so on. So yeah, even by 2021, the SDF was a majority Arab force. And that is impressive to be honest, in a situation like this. It's more than any force in a conflict zone like this could hope for, quite honestly. And this also goes for like the political administration that they have been quite successful in engaging, especially Arabs. But also generally like engaging people from different groups within the political system and ensuring that there is at least a minimum of representation of every possible ethnic group.

alexis: [00:35:33.25] Obviously, there's all sorts of other things that we can pick whatever like critical about that the film touches on. And, uh, I guess we can mention again, spoiler alert that, uh, there is, as one of the interviews, in fact, the same person that we were talking about before, is also mentioning how gender relations and like genealogy and so on is an important part of the ideology there, is an important vehicle for liberation of women. But at the same time he mentions like how there is a gap between that and more sort of modern critical gender theory that people might be more accustomed than. There are questions to be asked in terms of, you know, LGBT rights and so on and so forth. And the film does try to dig into that a bit. But as the same person again says, well, in any case, I'd rather be gay here than in any of the neighboring countries. So there you go.

alexis: [00:36:31.45] Something that is, in fact, kind of a almost a central theme of the film, I would say, is that regardless of all sorts of things that one could point out that are not going quite so well as many leftists and anarchists in the in the West would like to imagine, the fact of the matter remains, and it is seminally important as such, that Rojava retains a characteristic -- and it retains that to this day -- a characteristic which has been like a great source of its power. And that is being obviously better than anything else around it, in a blatantly obvious manner. Anyone with a tiniest bit of sense would choose Rojava, would choose to live in Rojava than anywhere else around in the region. And that's a pretty big deal already.

adi: [00:37:33.93] The topic of media and journalism came up into our discussion quite frequently, so maybe one of the things that I thought of when watching the movie was, um, how do you see your work as a documentary filmmaker? As far as I understood, it is not only a form of documentation, of journalism, but it is also a form of political engagement and action. So in what sense is this film different or similar to the work you have already done for the media and for the propaganda, let's say, wing of the revolution? And how is that different from Belki Sibe?

alexis: [00:38:21.69] You know, you kind of said it already. I did a few videos which also kind of feature, uh, some of the most, uh, let's say viral ones, like propaganda material that I produced back then when I was a soldier. They feature in the film as well. And yeah, I mean, the answer is this, that Belki Sibe, as much as it is very much so a political film, it's not propaganda. Something also of a different level than a five minute YouTube video with hip music, you know, and so on. Which has also like a different sort of purpose. Like, let me tell you that video that, uh, hopefully some of you and some of your audience, uh, perhaps still remembers.

alexis: [00:39:06.93] The video, which was a very important sort of propaganda moment for the IFB in particular. A video which starts with some people dancing on a roof where there is an antenna, a round antenna with a hammer and sickle painted on it. If people can sort of bring the image to mind. And then there's some very hip music, which is, by the way, music from the Black Sea. Great song indeed. I'm quite surprised that the artist hasn't received, you know, a lot of pressure to to take my video down from YouTube. But, uh, the artist allows the use on YouTube.

adi: [00:39:43.01] The soundtrack of the film is actually great. For me it was one of the highlights. It kind of really flows with the narrative and everything.

alexis: [00:39:51.21] Thank you very much. Thank you very much for myself, and thank you very much on behalf of Alexandros Miaris. But let me clarify something at this point, because I was just mentioning some music that I used for that propaganda video I did back in the day, and that it also features in the film. And that's not part of the original soundtrack. That is music from Turkey. It is called Hopa Hemsin, and it is from an artist called Marsys, I think, or something like that. But the title of the song is Hopa Hemsin. It's actually very popular. It has like millions of views. The OST, however, the original soundtrack is, as I said, from the musician and composer called Alexandros Miaris, who is a personal friend. I think the whole soundtrack is uploaded. It's only a matter of, you know, one click for anyone who is interested to to find out more about this music.

alexis: [00:40:45.29] To get to the, uh, let's say main piece, which is Le Daye, a truly wonderful song sung by Ishwar, which is a Kurdish singer based in London, uh, who cooperated with Alexandros for these recordings. They made a nice video clip as well. So if anybody can either look for Alexandros Miaris, or they can go to my social media and through my social media they can find the relevant post. It was published online before the release of the film, before the premiere of the film. And from there on they can get to like Alexandros Miaris's social media. I also believe that the soundtrack worked really well. It was quite successful and well, uh, you know, Alexandros is kind of a rock star, you know. He's part of a group called Electric Litany, which is in fact somewhat famous, by the way. Anyone can look him up. He's a really good musician. And a good friend, in fact, from quite a while ago.

NPC: [00:42:04.21] [Intermezzo song: La Daye, by Ishwar]

adi: [00:44:08.21] So maybe in the same vein, one of my more personal interests is, um, the fact that I had the feeling when watching the movie and the film that... Maybe I'm wrong, but this is the question: filmmaking is also a form of, let's say, archiving and keeping the memory of struggles. So my question would be if for you history and the politics of memory have a special place in anarchist politics or praxis or are they just, let's say, a byproduct of what you are doing?

alexis: [00:44:47.09] I would certainly agree to that. It kind of goes without saying that this is important. Memory is important and collective memory as well, and so on. Especially for someone who is politically active in Greece, because it is in fact a rather well known slogan used in Greece, especially when I was younger, it was very common, like prevalent as a slogan. This quote from Milan Kundera which says that struggle, the fight against [greek word]. What the hell is that in English? Obliviousness. Yeah. Or like against...

adi: [00:45:27.17] Oblivion?

alexis: [00:45:29.53] Oblivion, yes. Like forgetting. The fight against oblivion is a fight against authority. Or power, let's say. Something like this. Yeah. Now I'm translating from Greek something that was, you know, already translated. So this is something that is quite embedded in any Greek anarchist my age in some way. Because everyone, we all have heard this or seen it, you know, on a poster on a communique or anything like this. So yeah, for sure, preserving memory is important in all sorts of ways. It's important for communities, but it's also like politically important. And it is in many cases indeed an act of defiance and an act of resistance.

robi: [00:46:12.09] Maybe I would like to ask you, because you said like, you have a ton of material from which the documentary was made. I was curious if you have any plans about making that somehow a repository for that, or maybe people can do something with it. Or i don't know. Are you planning to make another documentary maybe from it?

alexis: [00:46:34.05] Oh, yeah. After all these years, after such a toll that all of this took to finish, very much doubt that I would make like another documentary. What I will do gradually, and I guess that's maybe a good time to mention that I also have a Patreon. Which I will have to admit that so far I haven't really worked it so much. I had no experience of this sort of thing when I first opened it when I went to Ukraine. And there's not like that much in there. It is more a matter of voluntary contribution than like a transaction, where you get some special perks, you know? But that's kind of how these things work. And I'm not totally sure how to navigate that.

alexis: [00:47:20.49] But I do actually intend to start publishing some of, let's say, the extra material. Uh, perhaps like firstly on Patreon. Not things that require more translation, because let me tell you, translation was a massive, massive issue. Something I kind of swore to myself, I will never do again. For anybody who wants to contribute, uh, somehow who wants to make a donation, i also have like a PayPal that people can access or can donate through my, um, ProtonMail, like Alexis Daloumis at protonmail.com. And this is because we haven't mentioned this yet, and it's actually quite important, that Belki Sibe is not a commercial film.

alexis: [00:48:00.29] As much as it took, you know, a great part of my life to make, it's not for sale. You know? It wasn't made to be a commodity. It will never be sold. It will never get distribution in commercial cinemas. It will never be bought by a platform like, uh, you know, whatever Netflix or anything or even anything smaller like that. And it never had sponsors. It never had any institutional funding or anything of that sort. It was made with support based on the logic of free voluntary contribution. So there was like at some point a crowdfunding to finish the film, especially for the post-production. And even now it is not even meant to be screened with like a fixed ticket in any of the screenings. If anything, there is a box for donations or an option like I mentioned, for anybody to make a donation via the internet at my Alexa Daloumis at protonMail.com or PayPal. And like I said, another thing is the Patreon.

alexis: [00:49:01.93] So in the Patreon I will, i guess -- since this is how this works -- I will start, uh, like uploading things like full interviews. Interviews that are in English. I tried to use a method of interviewing and tries to build up a whole kind of profile in some sort of way, like as if to suggest... So, let's delve into how did you become the person who decided to drop everything and go be a volunteer in a war in the Middle East. You know? There's material as that, and there's other bits and pieces of material that I can publish. But again, some of it is compromised by the fact that it needs translation. And I'm frankly not sure what I can do with that, but, uh, we'll see.

robi: [00:49:45.21] I would also imagine that some of the interviews that you did with, uh, like people from the local administration from various places might be interesting. But you need translation for that.

alexis: [00:49:56.93] Yes.

robi: [00:49:58.05] Yeah. Maybe you could make a call for that. Or make it public and then maybe there's people will want to add, uh, English subtitles or, you know, Kurdish or Arabic.

alexis: [00:50:07.69] I've considered this. I've considered that I can just basically upload this. And yes, that is one approach, you know. And at the end of the day, if it's something that interests enough people, you know. This is a likely course in fact.

ioni: [00:50:22.05] I would move a bit to a related topic because you talk a lot about the questions you get in the Q&A, and I can imagine you get the wildest questions. I'd tie it a bit to something else happening today, if you're willing to go into these details. Because for us, being Eastern European leftists, anarchists, it's not hard to be supportive of Rojava and to also support the Palestinian cause, for instance. Or, you know, just like call it what it is, a genocide. But Western leftists still have this problem that... Germans are the worst offenders, sometimes even the French.

ioni: [00:50:55.81] And I often see this discourse that the people are like European shaming the Palestinians. Why aren't you more like Rojava? Why aren't you not Communalist? Why don't you apply similar ideas to Ocalan, to save your people? Did you ever run into something like this with the reception you got for the movie, and with the talks you got around it? From my point of view, often this is also a way for which Western leftists pack anti-Arab racism in the form of this fake, progressive Rojava-concern discourse. Because many of them are often very uneducated on what's actually going on in Rojava, to be honest. I mean, they're surprised when you tell them that the PKK and the PLO did common training in the 80s and stuff like that.

alexis: [00:51:38.17] I don't have the same perception about the description of the situation that you just mentioned. In fact, it's kind of a funny. Or not exactly funny, but like... When you started saying we for us as Eastern Europeans, when you just said this phrase, I thought you were going to say something about Ukraine, to be honest. Because that would make more sense to me. Because that's where I find, yes, indeed a very, very distinct division of perception and so on. Because when it comes to Palestine, that's not how I would describe things in my perception. I would say, no, actually it is just Germany as far as I know. As far as I understand, in my environment, in my connections.

alexis: [00:52:22.57] Not even most of Germany. It is specifically the anti-deutsch tradition within the German left. Which kind of this was their field day. They were pretty much living for this. They were probably waiting for this all their life, you know. And yet let me tell you, from what I hear, from what I understand and what people tell me it is. Yeah? Like, it's not exactly like a reportage or something. I don't have, you know... But I have some sources. I discussed this with many people. And let me tell you, as far as I understand, they are in fact losing ground on this issue. Like the anti-deutsch as a section, they are in fact losing ground in Germany.

alexis: [00:53:05.13] But I get what you mean. Also it is a question that comes up, but mostly in regards to like okay, so what's the Kurdish movement saying about what's happening in Palestine. It's kind of a nuanced question, because they have only issued this one statement in the beginning of the war, in the beginning of the conflict, and that's pretty much it. And then, you know, sort of since that on a sort of official level, let's say, you know, they kind of kept away from the subject, you know. And there's quite a bit to unpack there.

alexis: [00:53:41.13] Matt Broomfield has written on this. It's worth reading. Maybe an obvious point to make is that there is a historical connection between the Kurdish movement and the Palestinian one. In terms of gaining experience and training as well, and so on. The Kurdish sort of guerrilla movement became possible to some extent or gained some momentum, some experience in Palestine, in fact. At the same time, you know, obviously, because this was a long, long time. It was like 40 years ago. Hamas is by very far not the PFLP. Not the PFLP of the 80s. In fact, not even the PFLP is the PFLP. So yes. Yes, indeed there is this connection. But it was also like a very different time with very different leadership, indeed, in the Palestinian movement.

alexis: [00:54:35.05] And far more importantly, perhaps, however, when it comes to now, where there is, let's say, kind of an awkward situation where a state, the country that is by very, very far the number one existential enemy of the Kurdish movement is actively trying to place itself as the number one champion for the defending of Palestine. Which is obviously bullshit to anyone who has a bit of sense. But in fact, until very recently, most if not all of the trade deals of Turkey and Israel were completely intact. Sure, there was a lot of rhetoric. Erdogan is really good at that, like kind of barking all sorts of bullshit.

alexis: [00:55:25.30] But at the same time, uh, yeah, most if not all of trade agreements and all kinds of cooperation was completely intact. Now they started cutting it down. But there's still quite a bit intact, I think. And of course, and it's not like at any point the Turkish state ever really did anything of any particular impact. Other than, you know, sort of ... That's just politics. The Erdogan regime is just trying to place itself, as they usually do, you know, within the geopolitical antagonism of what's happening. Quite obviously, they haven't really helped in any significant way.

lori: [00:56:04.22] Just to add on this. So basically, the Turkish state's behavior is so egregious because literally on the same day they would decry how Israel is bombing civilian infrastructure in Gaza. And they did the same in northern Syria. Literally the same day it was. And this kind of leads to my wider point of how mostly the Kurdish liberation movement, and Rojava in particular, are still marginalized even within the left. In the sense of like, it's not front and center right. It's not, you know, a movement that garners great support. Even though it has been for years under heavy attack from the Turkish state and the Kurdish liberation movement has faced ethnic cleansing, you know, for decades, basically a century now from the Turkish state itself.

alexis: [00:56:51.46] Yeah, that's exactly it. Like, that's exactly the case. It's also very much like a sort of, a colonized population. And in fact, the largest ethnic group on Earth without a country. Without a state. The Kurds, I would expand a little bit on the original question by adding something which I don't know, might be sort of relatable to, uh, some people's experience as well. Or rather to give a bit more perspective. To some extent, how people ask this question might depend on their particular experience in their own environment. Like in their own country. In terms of how both organized diasporas function within that country. Yeah?

alexis: [00:57:37.38] What I want to say about that is that this also differs from place to place. My impression and my understanding of different places and like just having discussed this with people. And it is that like, yeah, that in some places there's more visible awkwardness or visible tension perhaps, and in others less so. There's often this sort of thing that we call in Greek, this kind of petty political... Kind of micro political or petty political kind of issues. Of the sort like, uh, one group didn't show up to the other group's demo. But they also never showed up when we made the, you know, the demo for Ocalan. And these kind of things do become particular in particular locations, you know. Like, for example, in Greece there is not so much this vibe. Like in Greece, the Kurds in Athens have pretty much every time joined the Palestine demos. While I am in a position to know that in other places there's been a bit of this and that. You know? What I was mentioning before.

adi: [00:58:47.50] Maybe we can wrap it up with, um, the screenings that you did. And intend to do. And this is a two tier question, so to speak. I was wondering what was the target and what is the target audience that you thought of, when you did the movie? And of course, I know you did a lot of screenings in, like, social centers, cultural spaces and also book fairs. I know I saw the movie in the Prishtina Anarchist Bookfair, which was great.

alexis: [00:59:24.66] Also cinemas.

adi: [00:59:26.38] And in cinemas, yes. But that was mainly in Greece. So maybe you can walk us through your process of thinking what the audience would be for this movie and what the reactions were so far.

alexis: [00:59:42.74] There is already a kind of given audience to begin with, when you engage with the Kurdish movement. Globally speaking, you know. The audience that generally follows the Kurdish liberation movement. There is a given context of that audience being already there. And this is something you keep in mind when you even do whatever kind of, you know... When you do small bits of propaganda and try to disseminate it on the internet and so on. I would say, uh, this audience consists of two main parts. One is the Kurdish diaspora. Like globally speaking. Which is on the one hand, the organized, especially Kurdish diaspora on the one hand.

alexis: [01:00:26.34] And on the other hand, leftists and anarchists. In fact, anarchists even more so in my experience. So, as I said, like, this is kind of where you de facto begin with when making a film like that. And, um, even in terms of trying to address a more broad audience, which is something that both the making of the film, let's say -- the way we tried to make this film. But also the way we try to disseminate it -- is definitely, like in our aims. It's definitely part of my aims to be able to spread this film to as wide an audience as possible. Because the truth is, it is indeed kind of naturally, let's say. It is de facto primarily addressed to a section of the global left.

alexis: [01:01:16.98] Now, one could say there are themes within this revolution. Even within a film like this. There are themes that can be sort of appreciated by your average normie liberal, of a Western country. But, you know, you can't really assume that this is your core audience. It's not just about how we made this film, which, as I said before, like it was not meant to look like a totally partisan propaganda. And that matters as well for its dissemination and its potential and sort of dynamic to address wider audiences. But it's also about the practicalities of the dissemination.

alexis: [01:01:57.18] So it's also important that this film doesn't only play in like anarchist book fairs and squats. Because these are quite often the first kind of people that will reach out to you, you know, and ask for screenings. They are in fact most often anarchists. Without the film having any, you know, any particular.... There's no A in the circle in the fucking poster or something. Thankfully, there are also, you know, sort of suggestions both for like more, let's say, less politicized, less openly radical, you know, sort of cultural spaces and so on. But it is, in fact, like these kind of spaces, it can go a little bit the other way around. Like we have to reach out to them, you know. We have to more actively like try and get it into these kind of places.

adi: [01:02:43.18] What struck me about the movie, and this is why I raised the question. Was the fact that it was, in my opinion, a film that could speak to a lot of people, especially today. Regardless of their like political bias or whatever. Because it poses a core question, I think. And this question I would sum up as being how can hope, or if we conflate hope with revolution, grow in such a hostile environment. And in hopeless times. In that respect, I think it can actually speak to a lot of people. One of the strengths of the film, in my opinion, is that it's not a sectarian movie. It has an overtly political bias, but it speaks from a place of honesty and truth. And it speaks about situations that are also for the people who have been sheltered up until now, are looming in the horizon, in a sense.

alexis: [01:03:44.30] I mean, war and repression and even poverty, extreme poverty. So this was one of the things that attracted me when I saw the movie and the film. And it was one of the core questions that the movie tried to address. Because you have this dichotomy. When people you interview speak at the end of the film. I won't give spoilers. But people speak about hope. And it's such a contrast to the actual conditions in which those people speak about hope. And they don't speak it like in a romanticized way. They are actually speaking about hope. And that was very compelling and very powerful to me. And I think it's a message that can resonate for, I think, a lot of people today.

alexis: [01:04:37.86] I hope so. I truly hope so. And I'm really glad that this is your understanding of the film as well. Without going into too much detail, hope is not always very overtly, by the way, but hope is kind of a central theme, in fact, of the film. And we did very consciously and actively try to make this film as honest as possible. It can never be 100%. But we really, and I personally like, really strived to be as honest as possible in kind of laying out my experience and my understanding and kind of structuring a narrative around all these other people's experiences.

alexis: [01:05:19.22] And I'd say that this is something for people to keep in mind, even when perhaps there is something in the film that they find... And in my own narrative, even like in the voiceover. And I say this again without making any spoilers, I'll just put it like this. That it's something to keep in mind if they ever find something to be strange or questionable even. Yeah. Like, just remember this. I just tried to be as honest as possible about how it really was.

robi: [01:05:45.46] Robi here in the post-production process. There was one more question that we talked about with Alexis, right before recording. And, uh, it's only partway recorded. But I thought it would be interesting to insert it here. Uh, Lori asked the question about how people could go to Rojava and join civil positions, if they don't want anything to do with, like, military jobs or fighting and stuff like that. Yeah. And this is Alexis' answer.

alexis: [01:06:19.02] In terms of involvement of internationalists in civil positions and non military positions. Especially for people who have been there a while and have, uh, kind of made their way into the systems, there's a whole bunch of things you can do. There's a whole lot of, um ... Well, a whole lot. That might be an exaggeration. But there are a few, like, people who work as doctors and medical staff. Yeah? But it does require, I guess, getting to know the field a bit, you know. Or already having some sort of connection as well. There's plenty of positions that one can take.

alexis: [01:06:55.06] What is interesting as well, in terms of, um, journalism. Like the the IRC, which I never mentioned in the film, the RIC could also be a quite good example about, you know, international participation. And and maybe one I should make as a journalist, because it's basically about media. And I would say the IRS -- which means, by the way, Rojava Information Center -- I would say it's one of the most decent outlets of like journalistic work, which kind of actually upholds journalistic standards. Yeah? It's not just propaganda. Coming from Rojava in English. Yeah? Because it's an English speaking outlet.

alexis: [01:07:34.86] And I would encourage anyone who's interested in Rojava, in the Kurdish liberation movement, and Rojava in particular, to keep an eye on this page, on this outlet. Uh, not so much for like, current news, you know. Because as we all know, this sort of thing functions more and perhaps faster on things like Twitter and so on. But for the kind of analysis and longer articles that kind of delve into things and so on, I think it's a worthwhile outlet. One I never worked for, by the way. I'm not advertising any of my own work here. Uh, but kind of a shout out, you know, to our fellow journalists, I might say.

alexis: [01:08:14.06] Yeah. So there we go. We already covered a few things. In fact, I would say that I probably had more, perhaps engagement with the RIC or just as much than I had with the Internationalist Commune or Jineology International. The Internationalist Commune is a place I could have stayed, but i never really stayed in the Internationalist Commune. I visited, like once, pretty much, you know. I had very little like sort of experience in terms of living the everyday life of the Internationalist Commune. It was just something that was obvious to record in order to make a point about the possibility, the potential of people to come there and participate in the revolution, not necessarily holding a gun. Not necessarily being part of the military, if that's something they don't want to do.

alexis: [01:08:57.62] This is an important point to be made. That you don't have to be like, whatever, a war enthusiast to go there. You know? I mean, you don't have to be a war enthusiast even to go to fight, in fact. But in any case, for anybody who would be interested to participate in this revolution, it is important to make it perfectly clear that there are plenty of civil positions that are 100% non-military.

robi: [01:09:21.74] I think it's maybe a great point to end on. Thank you so much, Alexis, for offering your time and your energy to do this recording together. And, uh, well, hopefully we will meet you in person too, when we will screen the movie. If you're doing this tour.

alexis: [01:09:39.22] Yes, I wanted to mention that as well. That hopefully not too long from now I will be in Cluj especially, and possibly somewhere else around in person, and we can have a live Q&A after a screening.

robi: [01:09:53.02] Taking a lesson from the Zapatistas, we are editing the episodes very slowly. So it might it might appear after the... But yeah, yeah. Thanks a lot.

adi: [01:10:04.62] Thank you very much, Alexis.

alexis: [01:10:07.18] Well thank you guys.

NPC: [01:10:09.02] [outro collage with sloth noises]

lori: [01:10:16.74] Thank you everyone for listening to the episode. We would like to give shout outs to Crisy who made our artwork for this episode. For those of you who know, he has a very recognizable style, so you know who we're talking about. And then shout out to the people who made our soundtracks. We feature the songs Le Daye by Alexandros Miaris and Punx for Rojava by the band Adrestia. Thank you very much and good.

NPC: [01:10:51.50] [outro song: Punx for Rojava, by Adrestia]