Translation

NPC: [00:00:00] [intro collage: Sunday Blue, by Sofia Zadar]

robi: [00:00:23] Welcome to a new episode of leneșx radio. In today’s episode, our guests are Corina and Dominique from Asociația Avort Accesibil [r.n.: Accessible Abortion Association], who will tell us about the legal and practical conditions under which an abortion can be performed in Romania. Additionally, we will discuss the services and facilities that can be offered by their organization, Avort Accesibil, and by an entire european network of similar associations. Last but not least, we talk about the political situation in Romania, where the slide towards the right, the far right, will most likely turn abortion rights into a battlefield in the coming years. And that is why it is important that we are informed, and that we have these self-defense tools, so to say. I hope you find this episode educational an interesting. Pleasant audition!

NPC: [00:01:28] [intro collage: Sunday Blue, by Sofia Zadar]

robi: [00:01:52] Thank you for accepting our invitation. To start, would you like to tell us a few things about yourselves and about the Avort Accesibil Collective?

dominique: [00:02:01] Hello, I am Dominique, I am part of the Avort Accesibil Collective. Just a little bit about me. I started this part of reproductive justice and reproductive rights around highschool, because I noticed an acute need for peer-to-peer sexual education. And then this went further during the pandemic, when, unfortunately, abortion became highly restricted because hospitals weren’t putting abortion on the list of high priority medical procedures. And this is the source of this fight for accessible abortion and all the research we will talk about, about how abortion is seen in Romanian society and how hard it is in fact to receive and abortion, despite its legality. I have been doing this for over 6 years, almost 6 years. Oh my god, time flies. But I work on this issue of abortion in Romania, as well as at a global level, in different countries where abortion is more or less restricted. Word to you, Corina.

corina: [00:03:08] I am Corina. I am from the Avort Accesibil Collective. It is an initiative group that we formed last year, because we saw how abortion had become more and more inaccessible in Romania, especially during the last few years, after the pandemic, and we wanted to do something about this. What motivated me is the feeling of the injustice that is occurring, as well as personal experiences and those of my loved ones. We wanted to talk openly, freely about abortion and accountably, not hidden behind metaphors, which is where our name comes from. We want to call reality by its name, that abortion is common, even if it can seem otherwise. That it is a common and safe medical procedure, that it is an essential part of reproductive health, and that the possibility to decide when and if one continues a pregnancy pertains to the autonomy of each over one’s own body. We want to popularise actual scientific information about abortion, especially in the context that the public space is dominated by conservative or anti-abortion discourse, spreading false information to scare people, to stigmatise. And this is what we do.

corina: [00:04:32] We offer information about the available options for abortion, we help people findind a clinic close to them and accessing abortion pills. There is an increasingly acute lack of access to medical services, such that last year we started a collaboration with Women Help Women, an international feminist organisation, to make their abortion pills service available in Romania as well. It is an online service, available anywhere in the country, such that people living in rural areas or areas without medical services can have access to abortion pills. This collaboration also came out of the fact that we wish there to be as many alternatives as possible in Romania when it comes to access to abortion. At the same time, we also offer emotional support, because it is very stigmatised. Many people don’t talk to anybody about this and we are there for anyone who considers, is going through, or has been through an abortion, regardless of the reason they are doing it, without judging the person.

robi: [00:05:43] Would you like us to go into a bit of detail regarding the current situation in Romania? To what extent is abortion legal in Romania? Up to how many weeks and under what conditions? So legal in the law is one things, and the practice in different places around the country is another. In practice, to what extent do people who want an elective abortion have access to it? To see what the need or the problem is that you are answering with the collective.

dominique: [00:06:10] Legally, we have an otherwise very random limit. It is at 14 weeks, nothing is happening at 14 weeks that isn’t also happening at 12 or at 18 weeks. It is completely random. It is not based on science that we have a 14-week limit. This [limit] is in the Criminal Law. And it is important that we say it is in the Crimial Law, because, from the beginning, it tells you about abortion that it can be treated like criminal activity, which is extremely stigmatizing for everything involved in this medical procedure. I don’t think there is another medical procedure that is mentioned in Criminal Law. But abortion is. You can get an abortion up to 14 weeks and, if you have certain medical therapeutic reasons, if the pregnancy came from rape, if there are medical recommendations, fetal malformations or the life of the pregnant person is in danger, then teh abortion ca be performed even up to 24 weeks.

dominique: [00:07:14] The major problem when it comes to abortion is, of course, accessibility. Because, even though we haave a 14-week limit, in practice, it is very hard to find a hospital, a doctor to perform the abortion. In the study we published in 2024, we show that over 80% of the public hospitals refuse to perform abortions, which, of course, again, questions the idea of access. We see it mentioned a lot in the press that yes, abortion is legal in Romania and this means that, we’re done, absolutely all problems are solved. But the entire procedure of getting to have an abortion in a Romanian hospital is an extremely difficult one, even for us, who are familiar with the landscape of abortion.

dominique: [00:08:07] We talk about barriers from a medical standpoint, doctors that refuse, be it for religious reasons, be it that the department head doesn’t want to do it and then we ban it in the entire hospital, be it because of this extraordinary pressure from teh anti-abortion groups, which literally go into hospitals and harass the doctors they know to perform abortions. And then doctors refuse these procedures, it is much easier for them to say no, we don’t do this. We also have another problem. There are doctors who do it, but in private clinics, where they ask for five times the cost in a public hospital. So we also have the issue of money, because elective abortion isn’t covered by insurance. If you want to have an abortion, you have to pay. The age of the pregnancy doesn’t matter, you have to pay. Doctors and hospitals set their own prices. So there aren't any regulations for this part. And for pregnancies older than 14 weeks, there are no options in Romania, as it is, of course, illegal. You have to travel outside the country, to countries like… it used to be easier to get to the UK; now, after Brexit, it isn’t. But there are still places int Europe. The Netherlands is one of the countries in which we send people to have an abortion if it is over 14 weeks. But the biggest problem is this, is the limit decided on by each hospital, because some limits are absurd. Five weeks - at five weeks you barely know you’re pregnant. And there is also a limit related to ultrasounds. Not all ultrasounds are covered by the Casa de Asigurări de Sănătate [r.n.: the National Health Agency, CAS for short].

robi: [00:09:51] That is, they aren’t at all. I don’t think ultrasounds are covered by the CAS.

dominique: [00:09:55] They are, depending on the hospital. There are many hospitals that accept performing ultrasounds as part of the check-up and then they are covered by insurance. But, again, it is up to the hospital and it depends on what kind of contract the hospital has with the CAS, especially when it comes to pregnant people. It is important to know that this ultrasound is necessary for receiving abortion pills, but the ultrasound machine, I think, only identifies the pregnancy at about 4 weeks, 4-5 weeks, so it is absurd. You, as a hospital, say you only do abortions up to 5-6 weeks, when that person doesn’t even know they are pregnant at the time. This is why I have worked a lot with Women Help Women, as Corina was saying, because they don’t ask for this ultrasound, but only for the date of the last menstruation. And then this somehow reduces that extraordinary pressure that the Romanian health system puts on people who want to have an abortion. This is about what the landscape looks like now, when it comes to the legality of abortion in Romania. It is legal, but practically a struggle.

robi: [00:10:58] I know that there have been multiple studies throughout the years. FILIA, I think, did a study where they literally called hospitals and a very big percentage said they don’t do [abortions]. Even though, theoretically, they are public hospitals, which, normally, should do them. A very big percentage of them. There are entire counties where there is no hospital that does elective abortions.

dominique: [00:11:20] In the last few years, from what I remember, from the numbers I saw, I think there were 3 counties in 2024 that reported zero elective abortions. And we find it hard to believe that there wasn’t even one elective abortion in that county. Yes? And this is a big issue, because we don’t have a clear, such a clear image. Public hospitals report because they have to. They are public hospitals. Private clinics don’t always report. So there is probably a difference between the numbers we have form the National Public Health Institute and the reality in the field, which, of course, is extremely different and could never be represented through numbers, regardless of how much you try to regulate this part. Because not all private clinics - and, yeah, a big portion of abortions happen in private as well, as we previously said, especially where public hospitals completely refuse to do them. It is up to the person that owns the private clinic - if they want to report, they report, if not, then they don’t.

robi: [00:12:27] And it is clear that the situation is influenced by the political situation in the country. I am thinking especially about this proportion in which doctors refuse procedures for ethical or religious reasons as well. Or, as you said, because of the pressure from quote-unquote pro-life groups. If you want us to talk a little about what this political landscape looks like in Romania. Polls for the parliamentary elections show that the far right has about 40 percent of the votes in Parliament. We know that the right in Romania takes a lot of inspiration from the far right in the United States. No? We remember the scene with the clown that is Simion, who went on a delegation to Trump, and Trump didn’t receive him, but he went to cut a cake in the shape of Greenland with someone from there. This is the level they are at.

robi: [00:13:17] And there, in the USA, in 2022, this law, Roe v. Wade, was overturned, which was a major victory for the right. Refulating abortion rights at a federal level, if I am not mistaken. Now, various legal initiatives trying to restrict abortion rights, directly or indirectly, have started popping up here as well. They are all sorts of shady things, especially put forward by the far right. If you would like us to talk a little about this part, adn especially if you know, in particular, exactly what legal propositions are being passed around. And if not, just in general, to talk a little.

corina: [00:13:54] Yes, after 1989 there have been multiple legal initiatives that sought either to completely ban or to limit abortion through various ways. And the most recent ones take a lot of inspiration from the States. One of these legal propositions was right in 1997, 7 years after the overturning of the decree, that wanted to ban abortion and contraception completely. In 2012, there was another legal initiative, which wanted to force people to take part in a counselling session, to look at the embryo’s ultrasound and such things. All there legal propositions failed because there was big public pressure.

corina: [00:14:39] And the last one that appeared this year, in september 2025, when two representatives elected on the POT [r.n.: a far right party] lists submitted a legal proposal through which, they say, they want to ensure additional criminal protection to the fetus. Which we see very clearly is inspired from other laws, from the States. And, actually, the law would reduce the period in which an abortion can be performed, it would criminalize therapeutic abortion and it would make it possible to punish people who support someone who has an abortion. At this time, the Senate rejected the proposal and it is in the Commons, from what we know.

corina: [00:15:21] What we think is going to happen, more likely than a law to completely ban abortion - because we have a striking history that is still present in the collective memory - they will try, again through legal loopholes. We already see this pretext of protecting the fetus. I think the discourse about increasing the birth rate will gain more and more ground. And we expect the fight against abortion to intensify, because the idea of control over the body is central to conservative and fascist governments. We expect to see the anti-abortion organizations more, being more active, more present in public, and for them to make life difficult for those that offer support. These ways, though indirect, shouldn’t be subestimated, because we are where we are, in which abortion is inaccessible. Very many doctors refuse. As I said earlier, so many public hospitals don’t perform the procedure. And all these are the result of the pressure of anti-abortion organisations and the indifference, to say the least, of the state.

dominique: [00:16:36] One thing that I didn’t add earlier and that Corina mentioned now, when talking about this new initiative that would create this grey area, is that at present, if you have an abortion, be it legal or illegal, nothing happens to you as the pregnant person. If you get an abortion on your own, nothing happens to you. This is why, every time we have people who don’t know, have pills or are scared – what they’ll say at the hospital - always, you, as someone who had an abortion, can say “I took this pill, I took that pill” and nothing will happen to you. You don’t answer criminally for these things. In the Criminal Law, indeed, it is there to protect from doctors or people who try to force the person to have an abortion or perform illegal procedures that lead to the death of the person getting the abortion. Yes, so this is what features in the Criminal Law. But you, as a person getting an abortion, don’t answer criminally for these things. So you can rest easy on this part.

dominique: [00:17:38] And about the USA, I think what is important now is that we have already developed these support networks to make sure we have access to abortion, regardless of who is in power and what the state wants or doesn’t want to do. Because this independence allows us to be very assured through all elections, because we can say “yes, regardless of what happens, we will be able to provide this service and we have support from international associations”. Maybe the most recent case of abortion being banned, besides what happened in 2022 in the USA - and we see now how each state begins passing more and more restrictive legislation on the matter of abortion - is what is happening in Poland when, over night just like that, the Supreme Court, the Courthouse decided you can no longer have abortions in the case of fetal malformations.

dominique: [00:18:31] And, after Poland, a lot of international networks have been formed and this solidarity has developed among countries when it comes to access to abortion. And this helps us and encourages us, because we are surrounded by experienced activists, who will come to our help in the case that abortion becomes banned or extremely limited. But yes, we certainly see this trend all over the world. Not just in Romania. It is a symptom of more and more authoritarian regimes all over the world. We certainly expect the future to not be the funniest and most nice when it comes to reproductive rights.

dominique: [00:19:14] As Corina said as well, this fascism that knocks on the door is knocking with its fists. The element of control over reproduction will be instrumental to the development of these kinds of regimes. So we are expecting, maybe, the most. I mean we keep hope. Again, because, as I was saying, we have already started building these networks. And we won’t be very relaxed, but we will be able to say that, ok, we have options and we will continue having options as long as we have activists willing to support this element of abortion rights and we have abortion pills.

robi: [00:19:55] And because you mentioned it, do you want to talk about that too? So you with the collective talk about the alternative of having an abortion with pills, if I am saying that right, in this context in which, in practice, abortion rights are limited for a large number of people, either because doctors don’t want to perform it, even though legally they should do it, or because of the cost, which you said isn’t zero, meaning that elective abortion isn’t fully covered through public health services either. And yes, do you want to describe a little what it means to take the abortion pill and what it involves? 10 years ago, I think I still didn’t know that it exists and what it is. Me personally. So probably many people are in the same situation.

corina: [00:20:40] The abortion pill is a solution to the lack of access, but is in itself a safe and efficient procedure. It is the interruption of a pregnancy through the use of medicine, most commonly a combination of drugs between mifepristone and misoprostol - they are two drugs - which, taken according to the recommendations, is very efficient in proportion of 95-98%. Severe complications are rare and they can be treated by any doctor that treats the complications of spontaneous abortion, which is itself very common. The pills aren’t new, they have been studied for 40 years, they are approved in almost 100 countries, including Romania, and they are recommended by the World Health Organization. They have been used by millions of people. In the States, over half of the abortions use the abortion pill. In Finland, Sweden and Norway, 9 out of 10 abortions use the pills.

corina: [00:21:44] How does having an abortion with the pills usually unfold? These drugs cause a process similar to a spontaneous abortion: they cause cramps, bleeding, and the elimination of the pregnancy. On the first day, one swallows a pill, which is the mifepristone, after which most people don’t feel anything. So you can continue your day normally, and 24-48 hours after the first pill, one takes four or more misoprostol pills, the second drug, depending on the age of the pregnancy. The pills are kept between the cheeks and the gum or under the tongue for 30 minutes or they are inserted into the vagina. If the abortion is incomplete, more doses of misoprostol are taken. The pills work according to the following principle: the mifepristone, the first pill, stops the secretion of the hormones necessary for keeping the pregnancy, and the misoprostol causes cramps, uterine contractions, which eliminate the pregnancy. So, a person who takes the abortion pills will have bleeding with clots as the uterus contracts.

corina: [00:23:00] The second drug, misoprostol, also has other secondary effects, such as nausea, dizziness, chills, diarrhea. All are normal and they go away on their own in a few hours. We also have from other people’s experience multiple suggestions for making this whole experience easier. Of course, every experience is unique. For some people, the pain is more intense, for others, they feel like period pain. But it is important to be in a safe environment and to have access to a toilet for the whole duration of the abortion. It is good to monitor the bleeding. And you can take pain medication, to lessen the pain. You can eat. There are no other contraindications during the abortion. The bleeding and the pain start 1-3 hours after taking the 4 misoprostol pills and they decrease over 24 hours. And then everything should be ok. And, in actuality, the abortion pill is much more accessible.

corina: [00:24:13] Like any drugs, it has certain contraindications, but other than that, it is a lot more accessible. It is a self-managed method that allows for a certain degree of autonomy, to do it at the time chosen by you, in your own home. And this aspect is even more important for people that encounter discrimination in hospitals, such as queer or roma people. Misoprostol, specifically, was discovered by Brazilian activists. It is a drug that is also used for other medical conditions, but it was discovered in the sense of abortion through practice and it represented an innovation exactly because it allowed for the self-management of abortion in a safe way. The abortion pill is an important alternative for people who don’t have access to hospitals because of the distance, because the doctors refuse, or because the service is not provided.

robi: [00:25:19] And in Romania, can it be accessed through the general practitioner or through the gynecologist? I’m wondering both legally and in practice if it can be accessed. And if it can’t be accessed, for those who can’t access it, what alternatives do you suggest?

corina: [00:25:36] There are doctors who prescribe the abortion pills. It is performed in both public and private hospitals. It is approved, it is even recommended by the gynecologists’ society. But with the mention that elective abortion, regardless of procedure, is not covered by the national health insurance. So only the consultation can be covered through insurance and, in some cases, as dominique was saying earlier, maybe the ultrasound. But otherwise no, it is a paid service. And, as I was saying, we can help people find a clinic that performs abortion through pills or through the two other services that are there, about which we can talk a little later.

dominique: [00:26:22] In Romania, there is Safe Line, which is our telephone line from Asociația Moașelor [r.n.: the Midwives’ Association] from Romania, where we offer medical information related to abortion pills, but we also offer free support when it comes to this part of pills. Well, within the constraints of available funds. But yes, we try to make it as accessible and free as possible for the people who need it. We also have some partnerships with hospitals where, indeed, we support them with acquiring the abortion pills and, in turn, they support the people we bring through the Safe Line. And at Safe Line, we also have this element of support throughout the abortion. So, if someone needs indications, if they need someone to talk to, if they have concerns. We have dedicated people to answer immediately and check-in with them throughout the abortion with pills, from the taking of the first pill to the post-abortion check-up.

dominique: [00:27:28] And there is also the service offered by Women Help Women that we talked about, which requires an online consultation and then the person gets the pills in the mail, in discreet packaging, with instructions and, likewise, remote support. Or after the person has the pills from Women Help Women, they can write to us at Safe Line. And again, it is the same process in which we support people with correct information about abortion pills. Now, presently, this service, Women Help Women, is only in English, but we hope that it will soon be available in Romanian as well, depending on needs.

dominique: [00:28:06] So these are largely the ways. On this local side, there is us through Accessible Abortion or the Safe Line, which again is a phone line, but we usually receive WhatsApp messages, and on the international side there is Women Help Women. Differences, there are some differences maybe related to the ultrasound. Yes, we indeed require and ultrasound, we need one. Women Help Women don’t always ask for one, they have their own doctors also. So everything is based on medical information. You have doctors, midwives, medical students and people with extremely much information about the abortion procedure. So it is completely safe, whichever service you’d want to access.

dominique: [00:28:53] I had something to add about what Corina said earlier about how the abortion pills mime the same reactions as a spontaneous abortion. And this is very important, because we see clearly that we treat abortion pills and spontaneous abortion very differently. If a pregnant person has a spontaneous abortion, we don’t tell them “Oh, there’s risks, what are you gonna do?” Very many, very many pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion and no one tells you when you’re pregnant “Oh, be careful, you are going to hemorrhage”. You might? No. Doctors aren’t scared. Everyone reacts normally, because we know that spontaneous abortion is expected, unfortunately, in the first few months of pregnancy.

dominique: [00:29:38] In spite of this, elective abortion is treated very differently, as if the pregnant person doesn’t know what they’re doing or as if there were additional risks. Or what we hear on the TV from anti-abortion associations, saying that it would perforate the uterus and other such things. These things are extremely rare and, most of the time, if you happen to hear of a perforated uterus, it was because the doctor didn’t know how to do the surgical abortion properly. But again, these cases aren’t - in how long - in 6, in 5 years of experience with abortions, whether using the pill or curettage, I think we’ve had 3 complications. And that was because the persons had other adjacent health issues, and not because the abortion itself would be a dangerous procedure. These are meant to scare us, they are meant to add to the stigma that we were discussing earlier. Likewise, about self-management and why the abortion pill is so important, after all, is because it allows you to be independent of the doctor. Through, indeed, if you look at the procedure and how it’s done in Romania, the gynecologist - so you can’t have an abortion with the general practitioner, only with the gynecologist. Yes, there is this supremacy of the doctor in the Romanian health system.

dominique: [00:30:59] That is precisely why, at the Asociația Moașelor we are trying to make the inclusion of midwives in this system a reality. And for midwives to be able to prescribe abortion pills. And to expand the specialists who can prescribe abortion pills in order to make this thing more accessible, like it is, for example, in France, where midwives can prescribe it. There is an over-medicalization of the abortion pill, by which you have to take the pill in the doctor’s office, that the doctor has to check in. In practice, this doesn’t happen. Yes, indeed, you can take the first pill in the doctor’s office, but then you take the other pills at home. It is unnecessary to go to the doctor’s office or to have the doctor administer them. Because I’ve heard of this happening, unfortunately, while to me felt lke a violation of intimacy to have the doctor insert the pills in the vagina. Of course, if you ask, extraordinary, there is no issue. But it doesn’t seem right for the doctor to offer, because, again, you can have this type of abortion at home. This was the best innovation that activists in Brazil discovered, exactly because it represented a return of the control over one’s own body to the person. You no longer depend on doctors. You no longer depend on this entire health system about which Corina was also saying that it is extremely difficult to navigate and it is extremely discriminatory.

robi: [00:32:19] You’ve also said a little about the network Women Help Women. I have looked through your webpage that the organization Abortion Support Network can even offer financial aid. And you post much information, inclusively about how someone, if I am correct, someone who is past the weeks’ threshold can go to another country in the European Union, where it is legal until a more advanced age. Do you want to describe, briefly, these resources and these collectives, so we give an idea about how much information and how many options are accessible for someone who want to have an abortion and this procedure is conditioned in the place they live.

dominique: [00:33:02] There are many organizations that can offer financial aid depending on the age of the pregnancy. Each has its own procedures and it is more like on a case by case basis. It depends on the association capacity and on the respective person’s case. At present, as we were saying, if you need an abortion up to 14 weeks, but also over 14 weeks, it is the easiest to call our Safe Line or to message the Safe Line of the Asociației Moașelor from Romania or to enroll on Avort Accesibil. And, from there, we take over and counsel all the persons, including those past 14 weeks. I don’t know, depending on the age of the pregnancy, we decide together with the respective person on the best course of action, the best way to manage that case.

dominique: [00:33:48] At over 14 weeks, indeed, there is Abortion Without Borders, which is a collective of associations that offer access to abortion in Europe. The colleagues you mentioned previously from Abortion Support Network in the UK are also part of it, and so are out colleagues from Abortion Network Amsterdam from The Netherlands. Both associations offer logistical support to anyone who needs to travel for an abortion. Which happens in Romania if you are over 14 weeks. Usually, the conversations happen over email, at least with Abortion Network Amsterdam. But with Abortion Support Network, they have a form you fill out and then someone from their side contacts you, likewise, over email. Maybe this is good for the people who need support to know that it would be good for them to have an active email address for this part. But yes, they offer logistical support throughout the abortion schedule, they have clear procedures for where you go, how you get there.

dominique: [00:34:53] In The Netherlands, there is this idea of buddies. They are people who live there, in Amsterdam, who come and get you from the airport if you need it and it is a more vulnerable case or if you think you won’t manage on your own. Over time, we have had a lot of cases of people from Romania who travelled abroad and, for a good proportion of them, it was their first time ever leaving the country. And then, having had all these experiences, both associations know how to manage people from Romania who need an abortion abroad. These are the options someone has if Romania disallows it. And I’ve said, yes, there is also financial aid, but that is on a case by case basis. Sometimes it covers the costs in full, sometimes only partially. It also depends on the funds the associations have at that specific time.

robi: [00:35:44] Maybe another important question would be if you have some recommendations for how one should prepare emotionally as well for such a procedure or if it’s something that requires certain preparation or not. One of the things on which the social stigma surrounding abortion relies is that you are left with a trauma. Or I don’t know, things of that kind that come from the conservative world, I think and… Can you plan for it to happen over the weekend? I’m also thinking of how people who have jobs can handle this. So it’s these, on the one hand, how should a person who chooses to take the abortion pill prepare? And if you also have some suggestions for someone who tries to support a person going through an abortion at home.

corina: [00:36:31] In order to prepare, it is good to inform yourself beforehand, so that you know what to expect and don’t panic, so you know the signs of the complications that could occur and how it will unfold. What’s nice about the abortion pill is that, as we were saying earlier, you don’t depend on any medical institution or a doctor’s schedule. And you can schedule it to be over the weekend, such that, especially on the day you take the misoprostol, when you’ll feel the medications effects and the discharge of the pregnancy, you are in a comfortable, relaxing environment. It is good to arrange ahead – if you have children – to take them somewhere, so that you can relax. It is good to be in a place with access to a toilet and a comfortable place, like a bed, to have things that relax you at hand: movies, books, games.

corina: [00:37:25] And it is very important to have someone by your side, to support you, someone with whom you can relax. And what is also useful, if you experience nausea from the pregnancy, to have either a ginger tea at hand or to take some anti-nausea medication beforehand in order to avoid throwing up the pills. Pain medication; ibuprofen is the most recommended in these conditions. These are some suggestions for how you can make the experience a little easier on yourself. Maybe a warm shower or something hot to help with the cramps, with the pain caused by the cramps.

corina: [00:38:03] And for someone who wants to support a person going through a medical abortion, it is important to be there, to be good company. This thing is actually very important, to do something together that relaxes the other person. To talk, to listen without judgement, if the person wants to talk and, of course, to keep everything they tell you to yourself, because it is still stigmatized. And then keep confidentiality in mind. And remind them that their emotions are valid, because some people can have a complex of emotions. Practical help is very important. It is often underestimated, but it is very important. That is, if you can, cook, stay with the kids or help with errands or with shopping or with getting ready. It is also useful if you want to support someone having an abortion to be informed on what the person will go through and not panic. It is important that you are also relaxed, so that the other people can also relax. And it is also recommended that you stay in touch and ask how they are feeling afterwards, to keep helping if there is need. These are the recommendations and if you want to add something I’ve missed.

dominique: [00:39:27] Yes, the idea is that every experience of abortion, after all, is an extremely different one. We can say what we’ve noticed in the majority of cases, btu, again, for some people the pain is more intense, for some it’s less painful. But yes, it is important to know that you will bleed with clots and for this not to scare you. The clots will be smaller or bigger, depending on the age of the pregnancy. You need to know that you’ll have chills and not panic thinking it’s an infection or something. It is simply the way the organism responds to the pain or to what is happening inside the body. What is recommended, what I’ve seen works very well is to walk around, if you can, around the house or around the building, because this helps the expulsion a lot. Well, the expulsion sounds like, sci-fi. The discharge of the pregnancy. Yes, because you are staying in a vertical position and then the clots exit more easily than when lying down. But if you don’t feel like doing this, you can just stay in bed with something warm near the uterus and wait.

dominique: [00:40:34] We’ve had people who sleep, people who eat. It is good to eat something light, especially if you feel you’ll be nauseous. But there aren’t, again, other contraindications.Everyone. Like Corina was saying. It gives you the possibility of managing this experience of abortion how you want to. You can have people with you, you can do it on your own if you are more solitary, but it is still better if someone knows you are having an abortion and checks in from time to time. That’s about it. I don’t think we have something else. They can call the Safe Line if they have other questions about how to support someone during an abortion or what else to do on this matter of abortion.

robi: [00:41:16] Before the ending, if you can think of something else that would be important, let’s say, about which we haven’t talked yet.

dominique: [00:41:23] I think we underestimate the matter of stigma. Elective, spontaneous abortion, abortion of all kinds is very common. It is normal. Many people have been through it. Each experience is unique and different. Some people feel alright, others don’t feel very good about the abortion. It is normal that there is this multitude of emotions. This is what the stigma actually does, it evens out the experience, besides telling you you're a horrible person, there is only one way to have an abortion and to feel after an abortion. When this thing is actually untrue. There are very many - so many ways, very many emotions one has about an abortion and then we should create this space, so that they can be felt. Especially the misinformation spread by the anti-abortion associations creates and spreads this stigma that we talk about even more. Because if you think about it, after all, most of the times, negative experiences surrounding abortion were caused by the lack of support and the lack of access. My experience with abortion sucked because I went through it alone. It sucked because the doctor asked me some absolutely horrible questions, like “Why do I not want kids?”. It was horrible because I didn't know where to go and what to do.

dominique: [00:42:45] All these things come from the lack of access to information. They come from the stigma doctors hold. They come from the stigma that we as a society have, regarding people who have abortions. And this is what actually creates the extremely negative experiences when it comes to abortion. We can counteract this through the empathy we show people that go through an abortion, by being there and supporting them, and through what we are doing now, that is, creating, as we said earlier, spaces in which the experience of an abortion can be felt on the terms of the person having the abortion and who decides to have that abortion. And, of course, by making abortion more accessible, especially in the context that we see that the anti-abortion associations adopt this idea of “Oh, but we must protect women” most of the time. “We have to protect women.” And they have started to adopt parts of this feminist discourse. But we have seen how the legal proposal that Corina talked about earlier about the protection of the fetus was actually motivated claiming that it is actually about femicide, because we have had femicides of pregnant women and we actually want to protect women from femicide.

dominique: [00:44:06] In fact, this is a kind of Trojan horse in which the restriction of abortion hides, like, cloaked. And it is important that we look at this thing, because the anti-abortion associations have understood this thing, having received training from associations in the USA and other countries, that it doesn’t work to talk about restricting abortion at face value, especially in a country like Romania with a past like in Romania, but you have to be indirect and nuanced, say words like protection and such. This is why we have to pay attention and we have to work hard at eliminating the stigma, exactly so that we can talk clearly and bluntly, like we do at Avort Accesibil about, ok, this is what an abortion entails. It is super ok to feel any way about the abortion, because otherwise the anti-abortion associations capitalize on “look, they felt bad”. Yes, they felt bad because the doctor sucked. And we have to be accountable for this discourse about abortion without being scared of the reactions from the public. Because otherwise we will never get to normalize these experiences and we won’t create these spaces we mentioned earlier either. That’s about it for me. I hope my answer wasn't too long. Corina, if you have something else you want to say.

corina: [00:45:18] Yes, I wanted to emphasize, like you also did, that it is very important that we counteract the veiled discourse that anti-abortion organizations have now, so oppose any movements they want to make, marches, anti-abortion events. Anyone can do this. Counteract false information. Their purpose is to manipulate people, like with this idea of post-abortion trauma, which is not supported by any scientific study. And to support people that have an abortion, also with the empathy you have for them. Because abortion is normal, it has always existed and it will exist for a long time. What else can be done is to support the feminist networks and the local organizations that offer support for safe abortions, so that we make sure there is support, regardless of what governments are in power or not.

corina: [00:46:15] And to realise that limiting the access to services, in general, for reproductive health affects everyone. That is, statistically, it is inevitable to have someone close to you who needs an abortion at some point in their lives. And if you care about others or about social justice in general, it is essential that we put effort into this fight for these things related to reproduction and bodily autonomy. Meaning they aren’t just intimate or individual problems. And everyone’s involvement is very important.

dominique: [00:46:56] I think what is most important, we now need people who want to get involved, especially on the side of counselling. So, if someone wants to learn how to give counselling through an abortions, we are here. We are waiting. We wish very strongly for volunteers on this task, so that we can offer even more support than we already do. And if there are people who want to distribute materials, we have flyers that we have made and which we want to distribute around cafes, social spaces, hospitals, as they also offer a checklist for getting ready directly to the people wanting to have an abortion. And it would help us a lot if there were people who want to distribute these materials. And we would like, of course, if someone wanted to get even more involved with Avort Accesibil, to keep our social media active. We are also looking for graphical skills. Any idea is welcome to help us in this process, because we are again a small collective, there aren’t many of us. And, of course, if someone has time to offer some help to popularizing safe abortion, we are here 24/7. Se are available anytime on Instagram or by email or, if we know the person already face-to-face, on our personal accounts.

robi: [00:48:24] Thank you for offering us your time and energy to record together. All the information will be found in the episode’s description. So, if you need anything, look through the links and then write to the Avort Accesibil page, where one of our guests or someone from the collective will answer you. And you see from there what the next steps are. Thanks again. And thanks for fighting the good fight!

corina și dominique: [00:48:52] We also thank you.

NPC: [00:48:54] [outro music: Sunday Blue, by Sofia Zadar]

robi: [00:49:02] That’s it for today. We invite you to follow the Avort Accesibil insta page, to read the materials, to follow the links from our comrades and, if you have questions, to write to them directly on their page. Before we part, a shout out to the people whose work contributed to this episode: The music is the song Sunday Blue by Sofia Zadar. The art was created by Maia Vișa. And I personally thank the Leneșx team, who are usually unseen, but there are a handful of people there who work on each episode. I am glad we managed to make this project and to take it at the pace we can. Until next time, take care, kisses! Bye-bye!

NPC: [00:50:09] [outro music: Sunday Blue, by Sofia Zadar]